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Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
348
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Posted - 2013.10.29 06:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
The heavy suit is literally the perfect example to exemplify my point on this unpopular suggestion, and I used to be one of its largest supporters. But I am now in support of scouts NOT getting a second equipment slot.
Sentinels are easily in a bad position as well, yet they are seen frequently in PC matches, in fact they dominate them. While it holds negative connotations, no other suit is able to perform tower forge sniping, and the benefits of it are indisputable to winning matches. If Sentinels had one equipment slot and had their heavy weapon slot replaced with a light weapon slot, they would literally be even more barren than scouts. But Sentinels have more ehp and melee harder, so what? What unique role would they serve if they didn't have the forge gun? The answer to that is none, when giving the same general options then everything becomes relative, Sentinels are able to bypass relative comparisons on the basis of an exclusive trait.
Now back to giving scouts another equipment slots, it is indefinitely better than what we currently have as more options are better than less, but how does this boost our utility? How much will a two equipment slot scout compare to the cpu/pg/hp bulk of the 3 equipment slot logi? With Scouts smaller health which forces it away from the main force, its equipment choices are limited, and the quicker death just makes the scout a lot more expensive to run. Top this off with the fact that are stats are lack luster to begin with with the worst cpu/pg and that balance won't be changing much. Also scout racials will be module based, while logis racials will be equipment based, so adding a second equipment slot is in fact quite backwards thinking.
Essentially Scouts would not have gained a unique function, so a two equipment slot scout would be the light weapon Sentinel
Literally the only counter argument against this that I can see is if they created equipment that functioned off of the stamina/precision/profile stat, in which case the logis 50/55 stats and many modules pretty much close that gap if the logi wanted to function as a scout, which I have no arguments if the logi wanted to be scout lite but my point is that we aren't going to find the badassery of the scout with a second equipment slot and that it will have to be through something else.
Now with the idea that scout racials will not be effecting equipment, I was thinking ewar should take on the form of modules and came up with this
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1428802#post1428802
But I was curious if you guys had any ideas which would actually give a scout a non competitive exclusive trait since I do not see any relative buff as significant enough to compete.
So any thoughts and criticism welcomed
And thank you for your time |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 07:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Read your argument, and still disagree. Scouts purpose is to sneak around, get behind enemy lines, spot enemies, etc. Their eHP is extremely low meaning they are far from an ideal choice for combat, so why do they need two weapons (a light and a sidearm)? Ditch the sidearm in exchange for a second equipment and the scout will be able to not only sneak behind enemy lines, but do something while he's back there.
What equipment would function favorably for this? -Active Scanner to scan point out enemies to teammates while you're in their territory -Uplinks to spawn your teammates in behind enemy lines -Nanohives so after teammates spawns in behind enemy lines they have something to keep them going -Remote explosives to set traps behind enemy lines -Cloak (confirmed equipment in the future) self explanatory -Deployable shield (confirmed equipment in the future) to provide cover while hacking an objective behind lines
There's a lot of choices of equipment that would compliment the scout's ability to sneak around, a lot more so then having a second weapon. Also CCP has stated they are looking into redoing all the suit bonuses, so there's no telling what each bonus will be now.
Active Scanners give away your position so this goes against the sneakier scout, plus the eventual good passive scans with an active scanners is redundant
Uplinks literally take out about 2/5 to 1/2 of the scouts entire cpu/pg pool, uplink scouts are literally one trick ponies because that one suit can't do much else, which works with just one equipment slot, whereas the logi does not have to make this sacrifice
Nanohives are used unsuccessful by sniper scouts (sniper scouts benifit by moving more), since scouts operating near squads equates to dead scouts, this isn't used at all really
Remote explosives are good, no doubt about that lvl 1 works just fine and is cheap enough to fit
They have retracted cloaks saying they fear the imbalance, so it can come back as equipment or as a module, it is also unpopular outside the scout community
Deployable shields would be a big "I"m Here", which is a general no no, which is also why nanohives aren't a good idea for a scout.
Edit:
I forgot my finisher on this, all of this can still be replicated, which is the entire point of my thread, scouts need a unique role, if you disagree with combat, giving them equipment when there is clearly an equipment king in the field is a bad idea. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 07:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Qn1f3 wrote:I enjoyed the B-series when it existed, no sidearm, two equipment slots also a strangely high melee damage. Worked like a charm for me, but I don't think that I would want it back today.
I put my hopes on that they'll fix and balance scouts properly when the racials comes into play.
I used the B series exclusively when it was out as well, and I agree with you that I don't see it piercing pc matches on that alone |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 07:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:
But I was curious if you guys had any ideas which would actually give a scout a non competitive exclusive trait since I do not see any relative buff as significant enough to compete.
Would cloaking count as non-competitive? I'd say make personal full cloaking scout-exclusive, and everyone else needs some kind of cloak-hive, or shield-bubble-cloak-hive, or a directional cloaking device (like this 0:40). And to satisfy those who want 'invisible heavies', make the personal cloaks available for all, but give scouts an 80% fitting bonus (+40% at level 1, then +10% for the next four levels) on a piece of equipment that consumes something like 80CPU (hence for scouts its reduced to 16CPU at level 5 of their dropsuit skill)
If it couldn't be done by others then it would be non competitive
Edit: Misread your post, yes that would be considered non exclusive and would make cloaking a defense tool for the scout more than an offensive tool. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 08:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
I have scouted since the first build with skirmish 1.0 and have played scout exclusively, I have done sniper, shotgun, sidearm scout. I have played with aggressive and passive scout build, I have uplinks, active scanners, and remotes maxed. In previous builds I had nano tech maxed ect. Essentially I am not ignorant on scouts, I know my scout ins and outs, and I refuse to be challenged on that front.
Now lets break down what you wrote,
Aero Yassavi wrote: Active scanners don't give away your position. Being told your scanned doesn't mean the enemy knows where you are. A scout can easily fit uplinks, not sure what the problem is. A scout doesn't need proto uplinks either, just standard ones to get people into position is all.
Active scanners are useful if you operate near a squad or if you are an aggressive scout, which the logi who is more adapt at being near a squad benefits more from squad scans, assassin scouts are then more beneficial with active scanners, which is easier to do with two weapon slots. Also still didnGÇÖt address the overlap between passive and active scanning.
Uplinks: Not compared to other classes, and a standard uplink is not a battle changer, you find more success with the 3 uplink drops for quick changes for a larger number of units, else they are scanned down and eradicated quickly
Aero Yassavi wrote: What is a sniper scout? If you are sniping, you aren't scouting. When I said use nanohives, I mean preemptively place nanohives around your uplinks for your teammates.
This one is more of a jaw dropper for me, which makes me wonder your scouting experience is because this scout variant was separated from others due to its much larger success. It is one of the more effective scouting builds out there, unlike medium frames who perch with nanohives and damage mods, the scout sniper is running behind enemy lines, scanning for his benefit and his squad and is better at following enemy movements. This is your rolling sniper or your snapshot sniper.
Aero Yassavi wrote: If cloaks come as a fitting option for infantry, it's going to be an equipment slot. Makes no sense for it to be a module as that gives you no way to turn it on and off.
Active modules, my link covers that as well, though I used non cloaked examples
Aero Yassavi wrote: Obviously you haven't played as a scout much. When I get behind enemy lines and go to hack a key objective, I can't tell you how often I would of loved something to protect my back from snipers watching over or an infantry running back to stop me. Sure it gives away my position, but so does the giant flashing letter or warning across the screen that says I'm hacking a CRU. When you go in to hack something, you pretty much accept that the enemy are going to know you're there. You hack then GTFO. The shield can provide you the cover to do so.
95% of deaths from hacking are not from snipers due to how objectives are guarded and due to the fact that most scouts know where every sniper perch is located, they are from individuals within 15m from you, in which case the equipment wonGÇÖt do anything
Aero Yassavi wrote: And no, it cannot be replicated if you cannot get past the enemy scanners.
[/quote]
Yes it can, 55 just needs to get below 28 to past proto, which if any low slot logi wanted to get it below 28, and the only scout who will be getting past the focus will be the gal scout and just barely, making them again a one trick pony.
No one is arguing that more options help, but you still haven't explain how in relative competition how a two equipment slot scout would even compare the king of equipment with the offensive might of a shock unit.
If we were having a PC match, who would bring 5 two equipment slot scouts?
Edit:
I also apologize for any grammar and spelling errors, its 2 am over here. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 08:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Matticus Monk wrote:I'm fine with scouts not getting another equipment slot. To be honest I don't think scouts need any huge changes to have a defined role... the problem in my mind is that we are too slow to escape after being noticed by your typical AR/ScR user, and that our stealth mechanic is not as efficient as it NEEDS to be.
I think that a fully skilled scout should be able to avoid proto scanners without using modules (given we have so few slots; esp Min w/ their 2 low slots). Additionally, I think that we should be able to avoid being detected around installations, if they had a 44 db precision this would be pretty easy to do but even lower values are fine so other suits would have some incentive to skill up and run a dampener.
A bit more speed, a bit more stealth and I think scouts would come into their own as infiltrators, assassins and scouts.
Right now we are just targets for mediocre assault players. Against good players.... slaughter fest.
You're describing the main issue which is staying on the edge of action while being able to disengage unwanted confrontation, which is in fact the main issue, so I agree with you there. Though with a speed cap placed by ccp and with ccp's wariness of cloaks, I don't see how its going to get fixed right away, which is why the linked thread had disengaging abilities without cloaks. I also agree with better passive suit traits on which scouts already succeed in.
Its then just the appropriate mechanic that is acceptable which we can use to disengage
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Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
352
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 08:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
I forgot who I talked with this, it was another pie member, but the B series could be an amarr variant if you wish, I don't plan on using it and it doesn't hurt to have options, but I still don't think that alone will be what makes the scout break its current ceiling that it has, and that is just what I was getting at. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
353
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 17:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Matticus Monk wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Its then just the appropriate mechanic that is acceptable which we can use to disengage
I like the ideas in your other thread. Being slower than needed wouldn't be such an issue if there was some other way to disengage..... Seriously, sometimes all I need is another 2-3 seconds.....
exactly, the scouts number 1 issue is not being able to disengage properly, so by having a few decided defensive mechanism, that negates the major death count of the scout, then leaving the the utility of the scout logi lite or assassin is up to the player at that point.
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Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
360
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Read your argument, and still disagree. Scouts purpose is to sneak around, get behind enemy lines, spot enemies, etc. Their eHP is extremely low meaning they are far from an ideal choice for combat, so why do they need two weapons (a light and a sidearm)? Ditch the sidearm in exchange for a second equipment and the scout will be able to not only sneak behind enemy lines, but do something while he's back there.
What equipment would function favorably for this? -Active Scanner to scan point out enemies to teammates while you're in their territory -Uplinks to spawn your teammates in behind enemy lines -Nanohives so after teammates spawns in behind enemy lines they have something to keep them going -Remote explosives to set traps behind enemy lines -Cloak (confirmed equipment in the future) self explanatory -Deployable shield (confirmed equipment in the future) to provide cover while hacking an objective behind lines
There's a lot of choices of equipment that would compliment the scout's ability to sneak around, a lot more so then having a second weapon. Also CCP has stated they are looking into redoing all the suit bonuses, so there's no telling what each bonus will be now. I have having to be blind behind enemy lines. Passive scanning just doesn't get it done.
Passive scanning as it stands now is not permanent, it will be increased and improved upon
I currently use it with success, to avoid those looking to kill me and to flank those near cru and suppl depos. It has also saved my sniper builds many times since passives don't seem to be phased much by vertical distortions
Below db 28
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Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
360
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Honestly Scouts need that side-arm WITH 2 EQ slots, or they risk being outclassed by Min Logis.
My entire argument is that they 2 equipment slot scouts will still be outclassed by logis, which is not what I want, I want scouts to shine with their own utility, I just doubt the ability for that to be done through equipment alone, it may be a gimmick for the amarr scout but it won't be solving scouts woes in the slightest
Below db 28
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Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
360
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Honestly Scouts need that side-arm WITH 2 EQ slots, or they risk being outclassed by Min Logis. My entire argument is that they 2 equipment slot scouts will still be outclassed by logis, which is not what I want, I want scouts to shine with their own utility, I just doubt the ability for that to be done through equipment alone, it may be a gimmick for the amarr scout but it won't be solving scouts woes in the slightest I fail to see how giving scouts back field utility detracts from their intended role as stealth based suits, and then I cannot fathom why you would compare a light frame scout to a logi.....?
A light frame scout gets compared to a logi if the so called scout buff is a second equipment slot, because now the scout becomes the second equipment based class.
I also made a post that while the second equipment slot is better than what we have now, it is not what scouts need
#1 issue is escaping unfavorable encounters and or avoiding them
A second equipment slot does not do that.
Below db 28
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Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
360
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 21:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Honestly Scouts need that side-arm WITH 2 EQ slots, or they risk being outclassed by Min Logis. My entire argument is that they 2 equipment slot scouts will still be outclassed by logis, which is not what I want, I want scouts to shine with their own utility, I just doubt the ability for that to be done through equipment alone, it may be a gimmick for the amarr scout but it won't be solving scouts woes in the slightest It's not going to be done through equipment alone, you are correct. But do you honestly believe trading the sidearm for a second equipment would be detrimental to scouts?
Detrimental? No, I loved the B series, but it shouldn't be a scout staple, make it the amarr scout with two slots if need be, similar to how the amarr logi gets a sidearm.
edit:
A scout is going to find his refuge in the few items he excels in, passive detection, choosing targets, and the last missing piece is escaping targets.
Second Edit:
Unless equipment changes radically, which is easily possible, I don't see it as the shiny beacon. If CCP is going to do one thing for scouts, priority needs to be based on the first edit. Equipment is just a lovely second priority. Again, I would love to receive all these buffs, but I am also cautious of getting in the way of the nerf hammer again.
Below db 28
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